communities fighting back... >> we're fighting for you and we're taking these neighborhoods back, for you. >> a special look at the moves adding fuel to the motor city five days in detroit only on al jazeera america. >> the u.s. and nato apparently disagree on how to act with russia, how is that to putin? after two awful days on wall street, financial experts say we're headed for a crash. and was jesus married? i'm antonio mora. here's the headlines. >> the deadline has come and gone

for prorussian protesters to clear out of donetske. >> protesters in donesk are calling for referendum on independence. >> a mob brutally attacked a detroit man who accidently hit a ten-year-old boy with his truck. >> a group of men surrounded and savagely beat him. >> the police in detroit are looking at race as a possible motive. >> scientists say an ancient piece of papyrus suggesting that jesus was married is real. >> the debate of the status of women in christian churches. >> several new acts ready to enter the rock-n-roll hall of fame. >> we're humbled, all of us, to stand up on this stage and do what we love doing. and do what we love to do. >> are there cracks in the ukrainian crisis? president obama keeps threatening harsher sanction he but the european union is

concerned about hitting russia harder with their own are economic position. kevin ryan has served as an officer in europe, korea and iraq. currently the director of defense and intelligence projects at harvard's kennedy school of governance. good to have you back on the show. there's a rift between the sprem allied nato commander, he apparently wants the u.s. to do more militarily, but the obama administration doesn't. do you think that policy rift exists? >> actually, i don't think there's a rift the size that the daily beast article portrays or paints for us. i think at this point there are a lot of different assessments going around and there are a lot of different ideas on how to

react to what russia is doing or potentially could do in ukraine. it's only natural that nato and the ultimates and nato members would be fleshing out all those ideas right now in preparation for rolling out a plan which i think is next week on about the 15th of april. so i don't think that the story really is a disagreement between nato an the ultimate and the unr general breedlove. i think russia under the guise of an exercise has amassed a force along the ukrainian border the only purpose of which is for a major military action inside ukraine. that's the problem, that's the issue and i think everybody's trying to figure out what should be the appropriate extent for nato to take. >> in light of these troops this whole rift if we can call it

that played out rather publicly. because some of it leaked this week because of a tweet that was sent out by general breedlove who said russian forces around ukraine fully equipped capable to invade public denial stor it is a little bizarre is it not to have a nato general tweeting and imagery? >> i don't know that bizarre is the right word. >> unusual? >> well, five or ten years ago, nobody tweeted at all. so you know, credit everybody is into social media. this is all part of the responsibility, now, for leaders to be in touch with different constituencies, but what -- i think when people say that it's unusual for him to post slides with satellite photography in it, not so much unusual.

first of all, the slides and the satellite photography were all open-source information. so he's doing this not to tell ukraine what's on their border. they know what they're facing. the ukrainians don't really need us to tell them that. what he's doing is talking to the rest of the world, including to congressmen and population back here in the united states, but around the world, trying to tell them what's going on inside of russia. i think that's what the real point of all of that is. >> but on the other hand there is the report that the u.s. has not wanted to share intelligence about the russian troops with ukraine and there's a disagreement apparently with nato on the estimate of exactly how many troops are there. >> let's address the estimate of troops. kind of like counting birds in the forest. the numbers are very difficult to agree on. i think what general breedlove

has said is about 40,000 russian troops along the border. and these are troops that deployed there from specific bases deeper in russia. there's another count that's been used by the ukrainian government civility which is about 88 or -- itself, which is about 88 or 80,000. these are troops normally based in western russia. i think there's a justification or reason for the differences in counting. but the key is that there are way more troops than russia needs along the border with ukraine. that's the key thing. now, the first question, again, was about, remind me, the -- >> well, it -- it's really about that discrepancies between the numbers. but talking militarily, breedlove and some eastern european leaders are asking for more military support, including

some redeployment of nato troops. and i guess the question is would that escalation of matters be too provocative or even dangerous? >> no. we have to be sure we understand what he's talking about, doing things within nato and moving troops within nato and forces around. and this is completely within nato's right to do this. i do not think that this would be overly provocative to russia. what it would do is it would reinforce to the nato allies and to russia itself is that nato is very can committed to its article 5 protections to nato members. now as far as providing assistance of any kind to ukraine, ukraine is outside of nato, of course but the united states, and other countries on a bilateral basis have told

ukraine that they support ukraine at this time. the united states and russia and ukraine signed a budapest agreement back in 1984 which also commiteach country to not only respect the borders of ukraine but also to support ukraine if it needed that help. now the question is: what form will that help take? it is almost guaranteed that that form will not be military forces from the united states or from the west going into ukraine but there are other forms of military assistance we could provide. >> making the noise about this is all about nato trying to revitalize itself and that it makes no sense. but should the u.s. at least put troops or nato put troops of some type of military snrins intassistanceinto the ball baltic states? >> like adding american troops

and aircraft and so on, absolutely this is a possible move. i think american aircraft have already deployed to the baltic states and helped conduct air caps and air patrols there. but you know, nato doesn't need justification for its being, its purpose. over the last 24 years, nato has you know remained vigorous treaty organization. they have taken action outside of nato and afghanistan. so nato is on a very firm footing. and i don't think that nato is looking for a fight here. the problem is that russia has taken a -- you know for last 24 years nato has been trying to be more friendly to russia and be more of a partner to russia and russia has basically thrown that away in the last month and a half.

so nato will be reevaluating its relationship, really fundamental -- >> the bigger question whether russia is looking for a fight. brigadier general kevin ryan, appreciate you joining us. >> thank you. >> a white driver was brutally beaten by a mob of men, can after he checked on a ten-year-old boy he struck accidentally with his truck. one suspect has been charged with ethnic intimidation a hate crime and this is all stoking long simmering racial tensions in the motor city. finally and friends of steve utash gathered along with the area's political leaders, trying to heal divides. talking on the crime. joining us from droit

>> rick: detroit is cliff woodards. great to have you with us cliff, appreciate you joining us. utesh was a tree trimmer. reports that are the ten-year-old boy and that he hit him accidentally with his truck. the boy suffered a broken leg. when utesh got out to help he was attacked by a mob of african american men. he ended up in a medically induced coma in the hospital. there has been outrage from all races and all generations. >> yes, there last been outrage in the last several days. but right after the incident happened, as i wrote in a piece on facebook, the streets were quiet, and voices were silent. and that was a concern that i had initially. that the community had not really spoken out, as it really circulate -- should have to

attack and come together and heal the divisions that can happen when such an event like this transpires in the city. >> in fact you wrote that imagine, though, if this had happened to a black tree trimmer who was passing through roseville. al sharpton would have been on a plane before the man got out of surgery. you also wrote, where is black outrage over their own that they act so animalistic that they do rep rehencive attacks on those regardless of race. we have long been desensitized towards black on black crime but you say we become insensitive against black on white violence. >> that's the problem as i saw it when i wrote that about a week ago. it seemed not anyone was saying anything about this. unfortunately we have become as a culture desensitized to violence as it occurs within our

own community and whether this happened and no one said anything it almost seemed as we had become insensitive to such acts perpetrated on people outside our community. that's where we really need to stop, take a look and figure out who we are as a people. and this really isn't about race. race may have played a part in it. we saw that prosecutor kim worthy did charge one individual with ethnic intimidation but it's really beyond race. it's about really the collective human race. these type of acts circulate not be perpetrated on anyone anywhere. and it's really time for all of us to come together, as we did at the night of healing yesterday at little rock baptist church here in detroit, to try to bring together individuals to put a stop to this, not just when it happens but to try to find solutions so that it never happens again. >> and are you satisfied that your call has been heeded with

that prayer service on thursday night? because john con yers was there, the head of the naacp was there. >> there were a group of elected officials were there. the mire mike duggan -- the mayor mike duggan was there, and councilmembers were also present, as you said congressman john coniers and other elected officials were present. the elected officials did speak out reach out to the community and they wrapped their arms around the utash family and as well as others who have suffered atrocities in detroit and this is a good start. but let's remember this is just a start. we need to continue to do this, to ramp up our efforts. as a lot of the pastors did say, there are a number of churches here in this city.

this city has taken a number of hits over the years as everyone knows. we're in the state of a municipal bankruptcy here and a lot of recreation centers have closed over the years. there was a call for churches to come together, open up their recreation centers to try to work with the youth to take them off the street so that they are not ripe to try to find something to do illegal, when such events happen. if they are off the street, there was also a call for jobs. and detroit has a significant unemployment rate in the minority community. but if jobs can come back to the city, if training can come back to the city, then we can employ some of these people. and if they are engaged in lawful activities they will no longer have time for illegal action. >> yes, important solutions and we should say that even though a lot of people stood around and didn't get involved and obviously a large group of men beat this man, one woman, a nurse, bravely went out there

and stood up to everyone and protected this man. she was african-american. >> she did, she did. and that's something we all should do when we have an opportunity and we want to say congratulations and kudos to debra hughes for taking the moment and the opportunity to put in essence her life on the line. she didn't know what could happen to her when she went out there to face that mob but she didn't think about herself, she thought about a another individual. she didn't care if mr. utash was black or white. she saw a human in need. that's what we all need to do, in the suburbs, these type of attacks happen across the country and all it takes is one individual, to say stop. >> a lot of very important points, cliff woodards you have just made. and we have just shown video of why

debra hughes meeting with the utash family. we really appreciate you joining us to talk about this, thank you. coming up a second bad day on wall street has some analysts say we're headed for a crash. and request following immigrants who had died trying to cross into the united states. we'll take a look at the al jazeera series, border land.

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>> the stock market ended the week with two terrible days. and the turmoil on wall street

is leading to real worries on main street. the nasdaq has plunged by 4.4 since wednesday, the dow 2.5 and the s&p 500, 3%. experts are making their voices heard, we're on the edge of a stock market crash, is this much ado about nothing? we are joined by mark zandy, moody's analytics. thank you for coming on the show. we've got mark faber who says we're going osee a crash in the next few months, henry blodget, who says we shouldn't be surprised if this is the beginning of a stock market crash. are they just being alarmist? >> yes, i think so. the economy is improving, we're

in pretty good shape, businesses are highly highly profitable, we are in pretty good shape, it's hard to envisage a crash. we could go up and down but the crash is very unlikely. >> in cuckoo land, tech stocks and biotech stocks that began the plunge on thursday, little or no earnings trading at very high prices and that is of course what happened around the turn of the century whether the tech bubble burst. >> yes, i mean there are companies that have very high valuations and some of these tech companies have risen quite significantly and it's not surprising to see profit taking and those stocks come back down to earth. but the entire market of stocks, price earnings multiples a tried and

true valuation, is in the normal range, it's not screaming i'm overvalued, interest rates are rock-bottom, about as low as they get so in that context i think the ps are very respectable and from my perspective, valuation is okay. >> blodget says price earning ratios are worse than any other time, 1977 or 1929. they are worst than they have been in the past. >> if you take a straight up s&p 500, take it on a four quarter trailing basis or four quarter following basis, these are ways to look at stock valuation, it doesn't look that unaverage. the s&p is about 15 and now it's 16, 17, so by that measure it's high but high. >> all right.

now the stock market of course doesn't necessarily reflect what's going on in the economy. but when there has been a crash or even a correction which would be a 10% drop as you said that could signal slowing in an already fragile economy shouldn't it? >> it should but a garden variety correction isn't unusual at all. last year the stock rose 30%. let's say we have a 10% correction and we're only up 10% per annum over 2 years. that's pretty good. it would have to be much more of a correction. the recovery has got strong underpinnings and i don't think a garden variety correction would make any difference at this points. >> aren't there warning signs what happened on thursday and friday? thursday was mostly tech stocks, on friday j.p. morgan chase came

out with lower than expected earnings partly because of their mortgage business doing very poorly. could we see a slowing of the mortgage business? that is an engine of the economy. >> end of the refinancing activity mortgage rates br a percentage point -- about a percentage point higher than they have been. the broader message in this more halting stock market this year is that we can't expect stock prices to rise as strongly as they have over the last several years. going forward this year next year the year after we have to look for pedestrian normal returns, something like four, five, six, 7%. that is more typical. what the message is in this recent correction is the boom times, the easy money in the stock market that's over, we're not going to see that going forward. >> the warning signs for economy in general, the other thing we

saw was retail not doing well, gap and bed, bath and beyond not doing well, but consumer spending is another big end of the economy. >> here the bottom line is jobs and job growth clearly has rebounded from the very bad winter. we got a job number last friday and it showed a couple hundred thousand jobs were created in the month, that seems to be where the economy is, ratification in declining claims for unemployment insurance so people going to the employment office saying i'm out of work. as long as the jobs stay on track, the economy is going to be fine. it's not boom times and it can't support double digit price gains going forward but it can sustain single digit gains going forward. >> mark zandy thank you.

(r) focus of a new al jazeera america series borderland. it debuts sunday 9:00 p.m. eastern. six people with different points of view retrace steps of immigrants who died trying to enter into america. they are brought to a morgue filled with dead undocumented credit my grants -- migrants. >> i'm angry because all of these people shouldn't be dead. >> i love this country and i can't even begin to imagine or believer that my country would do this. >> this isn't about what our country is doing, unless you're showing that this country is so good, that people have been willing to die to try to make it here. >> people didn't come here pretty. are you kidding me? that is respect to all these

bodies here to even say this. people come out of necessity. >> americans didn't kim we didn't tell you to -- kill, we didn't tell you to come here. >> irina foster, good to did -- darren foster, good to see you. why did you think it was important to tell the story this way? >> yeah, well as you mentioned in your intro there, this is one of the most contentious issues in the united states, as far as political anyway. what's the reality on the ground on the border and across mexico? why are people risking their lives to come here? we thought the best way to do that was take people with different perspectives on the issue and really immerse them in it. >> you said you bring participants americans from different walks of life, from

different ages, and you track three of the journeys of people who died. tell us about the people you chose to go through this journey with you. >> sure. so you know, the idea is that we started this journey at ground zero, what the medical examiner of pima calls ground zero, nicknamed the corridor of death because so many migrants have passed away, crossing there. it is not actually hopping the fence that is obstacle there, it's actually getting across 60 miles of inhospitable desert, people facing dehydration, exposure, heatstroke, and so you know, about 170 lives were lost last year. as you mention, 6,000 in the last 15 years and we followed three of those stories that we felt were a pretty fair representation of the kind of people who make this journey.

so one was a 13-year-old boy from guatemala who came to reunite with his mother who was living here undocumented for about a decade before he decided to join her. another was a 21-year-old from mexico who was the quintessential aspirational story. claudette sanchez. and a 39-year-old woman named mira zolia, where she is from is el salvador but she liferre liva decade in des moines, avoid, and her brother and mother were living undocumented, mixed status, actually, it was to reunite to her family that she died crossing. >> to retrace the taps the are steps of the participants in the show.

>> it's a powerful experience, especially when you start with the fact that you know they're dead and they died making this journey. and so the first thing that thee cast members were hit with was -- these cast members were hit with was the very real fact that you know, people die doing this and they risk everything to get here. and so that was a starting point for them. and then it was up to the cast to sort of fill in these stories and find out why, why will they take this journey and what is this journey all about? >> how then as you went through this, it is a familiar reality series technique, to get people together, certainly not quite like you have done. you were out in the field with them. what did you find most surprising as they went south of the border and saw the other side, saw why all these people are trying to make it to the united states? >> yes, i think the most remarkable thing for all of us is we looked at thousands of applicants for this program and we found six. and i think the most surprising

thing for all of us was just how engaged they were with the issue. they really were curious. like genuinely curious about the people's lives about this issue and we commend them on just how much they engage with this issue. they went through some really tough experiences. some of them had never been outside the country before and overnight three were thrown into you know some pretty desperate conditions. and you know, it was tough, it was challenging but at the end of the day, i think they felt like they were really fortunate to have the experience to understand the issue at such a granular level. >> we really bring together people from the left and the right on this issue and you bring up the points they make throughout it. why is it important for people to watch borderland? >> i marine the fact is that nobody has a monopoly on truth. and what's going on on the border is really complex. and i think what happens in

these debates is that people select you know the facts that are going on down there, that supported their argument and disregard everything else that's happening. but you know the reality is much more complex. it is a dangerous place. you know there is a lot of drug smuggling that goes on. the cartels are right up against the border. but there's also a huge humanitarian crisis that's going on now. what happens in the debates is other sides separates them, let's look at one angle of this. the only way we look for solution is common ground. the common ground is people are dying the humanity of this. that's what we're trying to get at from this series, let's look at this from the human level and the real lives of people who are making this journey and who are living along the border. it is not just the migrants we follow. it's a very important point in the series but it's also the people who live on the border who are daily just dealing with this cries.

>> do you hope it will have an impact on the immigration debate or do you hope people will talk bit as a result of what you're going to show them over the next few weeks? >> of course. we hope that it has an impact on the debate in the sense that you know you don't really understand an issue until you can sort of see the full reality of it. so to pretend that you know, you, you know, have all the facts in your corner and yu side is right -- and your side is right, is not the way to tackle this debate. we need to be pragmatic and we need to understand that there are 11 million people who are living undocumented in this country and they have been doing this over the course of four or five presidencies and nobody has figured out a way to solve this problem. so you know definitely we want to foster the debate. we're not trying to provide solutions, we want people to see this from all different angles.

360 view of there crisis. >> borderland premiers at 9:00 sunday. time to see what's trending on the web. hermella. >> as you know, tuesday marks the first anniversary of the boston marathon bombing and to reflect on that day, robert dpvment foa x fogarty asked people to return. even though the bombing took both of her legs, celeste is standing with her daughter. sydney said, you can scar me, you can't stop me. heather has said, feeling this has made her a more compassionate person. less leg, more heart. her response was, it is what it is.

she says, being open about what she calls her deformity is therapeutic. and the portraits also honored the three who were killed in the bombing, martin richard, crystal campbell and lou lindsay. you can check out these and more at dearworld.me. and at aljazeera.com/creditthis. antonio looking at this in a positive way. >> strayed ahead, was jesus married, the so-called gospel of jesus's wife is thought to be not a forgery. would you name your child calisi? and later on controversy surrounds the rock 'n' roll hall of fame. >> weekday mornings on al jazeera america >> we do have breaking news this morning... >> start your day with in depth coverage from around the world. first hand reporting from across the country and real news keeping you

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>> jesus said to them, reply wife, she is able to be any disciple. -- my disciple. the tiny piece of papyrus has now been scientifically dated to approximately the 8th century. but many believe it is nothing but a forgery. that is part of the raging debate about the document. karen king, professor of divinity. professor king originally announced the existence of this papyrus fragment in rome in 2012. jesus said to them my wife, a new coptic fragment. karen, glad to have you with us. analysis that indicates this is authentic, others say it's a fake. the harvard review plirnl publia

rebuttal to your work. he said the fragment wass was so fake, it could be done in a monty python sketch. he didn't need to investigate the papyrus as a fake because the gra grammatical mistakes and the same mistakes as the gospel of thomas. what have you said to him? >> i have already replied to him. he had access to all the materials that the scientists produced. he had access to my article as well. it was a real disappointment to me that he decided that all of that material was irbe relevant and the discussions he had had and discussions he had made, this language you already pointed out about it 100% clear that it was a fake didn't actually require looking at the data. i suppose what i do is i point to the data. in particular the arguments he makes about it being copied from

a book called the gospel of thomas, of course the gospel of thomas existed in antiquity, and this wouldn't have happened in the contemporary world. the grammatical errors, the things he calls grammatical errors i've also pointed out in my work, are in part the kind of language that a native coptic speaker would use. we have cases of them in ancient man you a scrips that are indisputedly ancient and they are there. sadly, i haven't found that much in his work, i haven't found anything in his work that would actually indicate any positive evidence that this text was a fabrication in the modern period. >> you also said in an interview, this is a quote, when you have all the evidence pointing in one direction it doesn't make 100%. but history is not a place where 100% is a common thing.

do you think there's any chance that somebody could have taken old papyrus and nornlgd forged this? the endowment is so small it could be destroyed. >> the scientists have done a remarkable job of proving at least to me, the fragment itself, the material itself the papyrus and ink are ancient. it would be relatively easy to get a piece of papyrus that's ancient and write on it. mor much, much more difficult to fabricate the carbon characteristics of ancient ink. so this is practically impossible. >> this document doesn't necessarily indicate that jesus had a wife. but if authentic what does it prove, at least serched years after christ -- 700 years after

christ was born a community in egypt felt that jesus had a wife? >> the fact is that jesus had a wife, someone produced this document, i really appreciate your saying that this is not evidence that jeefns was married. -- jesus was married, that the historical jesus had a wife, that remains true, whether it's a plod earn production or an ancient text but given that it's an ancient text who was writing it? what were early christians saying this, why did they write such a thing? and now that we know because of the radio carbon dating that noreen turris did, showing that it belonged to the refnlt 7th to 9th century -- 7th to 9th centuries, what are christians doing with this text in early egypt, there is early islamic period. this is a copy we have now

existing and the text itself was probably composed much earlier. and at that period, it would have been during controversies over questions over christian sexual ethics. that is to say, is it better for a christian person to be married and to have churn or be a virgin and a celibate? or must a person be a virgin and a celibate to be a true christian? this fragment would come from that early period. >> brings up all questions about the modern church. what do you say it's too perfect perfect, somehow this little piece addresses an issue that is so hotly debated today? >> it's unfortunately or perhaps interestingly enough the case the questions about women's

disciple ship, about women's being fully capable, especially -- i think the main issue in this fragment as we have it is it says women who are wives and mothers can be completely disciples of jesus. the facts that those types of issues raging in the early church, already in the first century in the letters of paul and continue to be raging in our own time period is very interesting. but it doesn't -- it doesn't show us that the fragment was -- could only belong now or could only belong then since those issues continue. >> so many issues raised by this. and it's really a fascinating conversation and a fascinating document. karen king, thank you for being on the show. >> thank you very much. >> coming up, the rock 'n' roll hall of fame raises controversy who should be in the ra hall and who shouldn't.

naming babies after >> what excites me about detroit is the feeling of possibility... >> the re-birth of an america city >> we're looking at what every city can learn from detroit, >> the industrial revival entrepreneurs driving growth communities fighting back... >> we're fighting for you and we're taking these neighborhoods back, for you. >> a special look at the moves adding fuel to the motor city five days in detroit only on al jazeera america. >> al jazeera america is a straight-forward news channel. >> its the most exciting thing to happen to american journalism in decades. >> we believe in digging deep. >> its unbiased, fact-based, in-depth journalism. >> you give them the facts, dispense with the fluff and get straight to the point. >> i'm on the ground every day finding stories that matter to you. >> in new orleans... >> seattle bureau... >> washington... >> detroit... >> chicago... >> nashville... >> los angeles... >> san francisco... >> al jazeera america,

take a new look at news.

>> today's data dive wonders what's in a name? a baby's name. box took a look at how pop cultures real and imagined affects the names we give our kids. game of thrones is a massively popular series of books that spawned hbo's tv show. new parents have expressed their

love for it after naming lots of kids after one of the shows' queens. more girls were named kalisi than betty or dean. only five babies were named kalisi in 2010. as the hbo show premiered and gained popularity. aria, the name of another throne's character, has gained popularity but it was a name that already existed. >> credit hunger games, dozen people named their children after the heroine. hermoine, draco and cerie.

30 years ago, splash was a huge hit. it featured darryl hannah as a mermaid, who at one time tried to flame herself. >> i like madison. >> madison is not a name. okay, all right, madison it is. better than 149th street. >> it wasn't a well-known name and only then it had only been a man's name. the name got so popular madison made it to the top five name of this century. bella is the lead character and the following year , are isabella has been there ever since. the rom n roll hall of fame's new class, who belongs and who doesn't? >> on the next talk to al aljazeera... >> i'm antonio mora

and this is talk to al jazeera >> award winning documentary director ken burns, talks about his craft, and his latest project on the gettysburg address talk to al jazeera only on al jazeera america

>> is the rock 'n' roll hall of fame elitist and out of touch with most fans? that's the charge coming from an

odd source, one of this year's newly inducted groups. kiss slammed the hall, saying the hall was forced into selecting them because of their ticket and album sales. they mostly played nice at the induction ceremony with the exception of a comment from paul stanley, saying the people are talking to the rock 'n' roll hall of fame and saying they want more. they don't want to be spoon-fed for a hand ful.people. the people nominate, all inductees do not. let's are bring in bawl paul whyman, appearing his kiss makeup to wear around town. sorry, i couldn't resist that bill. they were eligible 15 years ago, only the original four members of kiss were inducted. are they out of touch with what

rock fans really want? >> this is a complicated question. yes, but. this is one of those great disputes where both sides are very, very, very, very wrong. cikiss is a silly and minor ban, the only reason they were asked to be part of the rock 'n' roll hall of fame is because they are still a can big draw and where the barkley can center is where the induction ceremony was held. >> i'm going to stop you there. hollywood, for example, you do a million actors that do -- actors that do a million films and they just get inducted, as a lifetime achievement award. >> that happens but it's actually relatively rare. the problem with kiss is they weren't as are important a band. they had two or three credit

hits in the 1970s but others who had never even been considered for the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, that are better bands. they, cheap trick are not filling stadiums but they don't get considered. >> gene simmons, slammed the induction of some rap groups and he said that last month, to i believe "time" magazine, he said you've got grand master flash in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame, run dmc in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame? that doesn't mean they're not good artists, they don't play guitar, you don't 80 your -- write your own songs you don't belong there. belong in a nonexistent disco hall of fame. does he have a point?

>> no, he's a complete idiot. are run dmc for crying out loud was the first who brought rock and rap together. completely world their way into rock 'n' roll society. how can you have a band like the red hot chili peppers, shouldn't be in the rock 'n' roll hall of fame anyway. that's why can miles davis is in there. the idea of a bozo like gene simmons saying that, he shouldn't have gone to the ceremony. >> maybe they should have called it the music industry, modern music industry hall of fame and that way we wouldn't have these arguments? >> that's a good point. and actually speaking seriously, for a minute, rock 'n' roll is a really big tent, okay?

that's why james taylor is rock 'n' roll and that's why grand master flash and nelly is rock 'n' roll and why james taylor is rock 'n' roll. >> look at the acts that got in, cat stevens, linda ronstadt, hall and oats, you got nir van can nirvana and kiss. >> i get the point. you get the sense that nominations are made a bit on commerciality, bands like roxy music. hugely artistic. bands like the lovin' spoon full, who was a nice little band, in the '60s. not like a tbhand broadened the form. >> should fans have more of a role? it sounds at times you're argue they shouldn't.

>> you want to hear my honest answer? >> yes. >> there shouldn't be a rock 'n' roll hall of fame. you don't want the industry fat cats standing there basically picking their buddies and secluding the people they don't like for completely weird reasons behind the scenes with no accountability. it just doesn't make any sense. s going, don't you like al green, they would get them into the fold. elvis cost ello and the sex pistols have stood up and said we don't want to have anything to do with it. dire straits, i'm not sure if they've been nominated, oversight, secluded, or clear behind the scene they're not

interested and so they never get nominated. >> glad to have you with us the show may be over but the conversation continues. our facebook or google plus >> good morning to you. and welcome to al jazeera america. i'm morgan radford with the stories we're following for you. in ukraine pro russian activists refuse to leave government buildings. >> a ball of fire. everyone screaming. >> what witnesses are saying about a fedex truck that hit a bus filled with teenagers. plus fires, t