MoDA objects mentioned in this podcast episode
Geometric design in beige, brown, orange and red
A screen printed textile fabric with a geometric design in beige, brown, orange and red from 1933.
Sylvia Ikua: Collecting Colour
Creative Writing student Sylvia Ikua gives us a glimpse of a fascinating and colourful object
Home Planet Podcast: Transcript
Ana: For our first podcast we are very lucky to have not just one but three guests, Zoe(Burt), Lara (Mantell) and Flo (Hawkins), who are all part of the textile collective Ceres. They move around London but most recently they have been based in Brixton, in the South. They had to come all the way up north, to Colindale, where the Museum of Domestic Design and Architecture is, as they have been our most recent Artists in Residence.
They drew inspiration from the MoDA collections to make new textile pieces, using screen printing techniques and most importantly, natural dyes. Because this is their expertise – using natural plant processes to innovate in methods that are more sustainable and eco-friendly. Hence their name Ceres, which – you may be interested to know – is the large asteroid that lies between Mars and Jupiter, but is also the name of the Roman goddess of agriculture, the protector of fertility and crops.
So Ceres are all fascinated by the chemistry of natural colours. They go on foraging expeditions in London and they are also spreading these new ways of working and thinking about craft and making through their teaching at various colleges in London. So stay tuned to hear our great discussion about textile printing, sustainability and how museums can inspire you in your design process.
Welcome Zoe, Lara and Flo, it’s such a pleasure to have you here and kick off our podcast series with you.
At MoDA it all began with one very long sitting in the museum, you spent hours wading through heaps of material, from MoDA’s collection from Japanese paper stencils (katagami) to designs by Edward Bawden, by Lucienne Day, wallpaper, textiles. And I’m seeing the results of this research in front of me – these are fabulous textiles, so rich in their colours, full of depth; ochres, dark reds, purples, and the textiles have a very fine quality as well. So can you each choose one of these pieces, your favourite, and tell us a bit about it and what object from MoDA’s collections inspired you.
Zoe: One of the key things that jumped out was this dye book from 1894. It is a remarkable book, because it’s almost like a Harry Potter spell book. It’s this big, leather bound paper tome, that has got hundreds and hundreds of pages, a lovely old slightly brown edges. And when it folds over it’s such a big fat book that it creates these amazing patterns and stripes, just the way it folds over onto itself onto the table. And I found that a very exciting way of getting an idea for a stripe, and I mixed that with another image which was from the Edward Bawden Book of Cuts, and the front cover of this book was a stunner. It’s an octagon and it has this amazing stripe within it. So I used a digital photograph of the dye book’s pages, put it into the Edward Bawden style octagon shape, and created a repeat pattern, and just using a one colour print, so very simple.
And the piece that I’m referring to now has been dyed with avocado stones onto silk. And the one colour print has been made with logwood; so it’s kind of a dusky pink background and a purple print on the top.
Ana: That was Zoe and here’s what Lara had to say.
Lara: One of my top favourite artefacts was a Christmas card called Winter’s Afternoon by a designer called Gwen White, and I really liked this card, it had very strong shadows over ploughed fields, and some quite stark looking trees. The colours were much more muted than the ones that normally appeal to me; so it was more the contrasting shadows which really inspired me. And I printed a couple of different designs from it; I printed a two colour design, but in true natural dye-modifying way my two colour design turned into about ten colours by the time I had overprinted with a citric acid and then a soda ash, then put some log-wood back into it.
And then I had another design which I printed onto linen, and that again was two screens but it looks like about thirty screens because I’ve overprinted them and picked out little bits in iron which makes it go much darker. But I tried to get the liveliness of the shadows bouncing across the ploughed fields, and the bark of the trees in both of these prints.
Ana: And finally Flo was inspired by a very different object:
Flo: I was inspired by a geometric design from I think the 1930s, with about five different colours. And for me the rhythm the geometric rhythm was touching, and it reminded me a little bit of a city, and from far away I could imagine a simplistic cityscape. So my version is only two, well three colours a repeating pattern, which I printed on to silk and wool, and linen as well – did different samples.
Ana: So we have been hearing how you were inspired by objects in the museum’s collections. But in fact you are not so much concerned with the past but with very current ecological issues which affect the future for all of us… And the work that you are doing is in fact very pioneering, there are not fixed rules, and there is very little out there about natural print dying.
So the work that you’ve made is part of a wider resurgence of natural dyes in the textile arts. In the past couple of years we have seen a growing number of craft workshops and courses in the UK, some of which you teach. And the agenda for slow fashion is also being echoed online, with platforms such as No Serial Number magazine, but also podcasts, like Spirit of 608 or Wardrobe Crisis which are airing these discussions and providing a space for new initiatives to be visible.
These eco-conscious trends are emerging partly I think we can say as a response to the fashion industry’s environmental impact and its labour conditions. To give some figures from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, between the year 2000 and 2015, clothing production doubled. This was about a hundred billion garments produced a year. Lobbyists and activists have for a while now been calling out companies on these practices. But is this now, do you think, becoming more mainstream?
We saw last month, Fashion Revolution week making louder demands for greater transparency in fashion for changing the way that our clothes are sourced, produced and consumed. Or also take for example, the Extinction Rebellion across London, its wide following, this being an international movement that is also thinking about environmental issues and about ecological collapse.
What are Natural Dyes?
Ana: So we’ll be discussing these issues in relation to your work, and how you see yourselves as part of this conversation. But before getting us into deep conversation, and throwing you into the deep end, let’s get warmed up. And I wanted to start with you Lara; with a very simple question – what are natural dyes?
Lara: Natural dyes are the colours pigment which all come from plants and animals and minerals. The ones that comes from plants are the most commonly used, and they might come from the leaves, the barks, the stems, or the flowers. Some of the natural dyes will be grown as crops, so like any food crop they might be organic or they might be not organically grown.
We, as Ceres, we tend to use a lot of bio-waste and kitchen waste ingredients, so those are more likely to be organic, like red onion peel or carrot tops. Sometimes we use dye extracts which are very concentrated forms of the dye, but we buy them from companies like Wild Colours, and those companies won’t tell you if they’re organic, but they’ll tell you the food miles they have travelled, so the provenance of the dyes, where they’ve come from different parts of the world, so that we know whether they’ve been grown in England or whether they’ve come from further afield.
Ana: So then you would say that an important consideration for you is thinking about the source and origin of the materials that you use, and how far they’ve travelled from?
Lara: Yes, I think to be truly sustainable then it’s very important to think not only how far your dye has travelled but also how far your fabrics have travelled.
Ana: The other day, I was reading that the world’s dyestuffs industry produces about 500,000 tonnes of synthetic dye each year. This seems extraordinary, difficult to compute! And, when we talk about synthetic dyes we need to look back at textile manufacturing in Britain and its history in the nineteenth century because this had a lot to do with the emergence of synthetic dyes. Many sources credit the English chemist William Henry Perkin for the first synthetic formula, mauve, of purple colour, which was patented in 1856 (Garfield, 2000). But before this, dyes would have been made from plants, flowers, roots, insects and even shellfish. And we often know little about this history – Zoe, could you quickly run us through this, perhaps mention a few specific examples?
Zoe: Yes, happily, I think it is a fascinating history because prior to 1856 everything would have been dyed with either plants or insects, so all your tapestries, clothing, your bedding, your carpets, everything would have been dyed with natural materials. So it was a huge change when he discovered this synthetic dye and in fact changed the natural dye industry almost overnight. Because by synthesising the colour purple which is actually one of the hardest colours to get in natural dyes it caused a complete revelation, and he needed only a small amount of purple substance to dye the fabric. He was only 18 years of age at the time when he tested this out. As a chemist he was knighted, he made great contributions to the scientific industry and to the industrial economics of the country as well.
But prior to that you know there’s evidence of Egyptians using for example madder, which is one of the oldest dye plants, its scientific or Latin name is Rubia tinctorum, and it’s the root of the plant which yields absolutely beautiful colours of red, pinks, yellows, browns…it’s a dyestuff that was then grown in Europe. Other heritage dye plants are ones like woad, Isatis tinctoria you get the blue colour from the leaves… and that was a huge medieval European dye industry before the discovery of indigo, indigofera tinctoria, which had much higher concentration of blue colour within the leaves and again changed the dye industry dramatically.
What’s involved in making natural dyes?
Ana: It is very interesting to think that some of the dyes that have been used for thousands of years are still in use today. So I wanted to throw this question at you, Flo. Where do you source your dyes from, where do you get them, how do you process them, what is the making that is involved?
Flo: I do use plant extracts but I also like to forage, so to pick on walks, locally. I ask farmers market to keep their waste. I work with a local vegetarian café as well, so when I need some colour I ask them and they provide me with onion skin, and pomegranate skins, lots of different carrot tops, and also at home, I just keep whatever waste as well.
Ana: So maybe, with one of the examples that we have in front of us, can you tell us what dyes did you use and what was the process of making those dyes as well? So you’ve talked about where you source them, but happens afterwards?
Flo: This one was made with mulberry, foraged mulberry, which actually Lara and I foraged, it was in West London last year. And also I used foraged plant berry with plant extract. So I like sometimes to mix. So what you need to do, you cover the berries in a pan, let it simmer for half an hour, 45 mins, and then I then I let it cool down, and sieve it through muslin cloth, then I will use some thickener, like and Adelca, and mix it together and then I will add some plant extract sometimes, if I want to modify the tint of the colour. And then I let it cool down. I then I also use some allum, which not only helps the colour to penetrate the fabric but is also an anti-bacterial element to the paste, so the paste keeps for a long long time. It’s like cooking.
Ana: What happens with the dye afterwards, when you, do you dispose of it? Because that is a big problem in the fashion industry, and the way that you work avoids this disposal, you seem to say you use it all the way to the end.
Flo: I think I use it until the end. And I will mix it to others to make a different shade of colour. If I can. So I really stretch. It’s like when you empty your fridge. I don’t like to waste.
Ana: And I understand these colours depend on many factors, the type of fabric, whether it’s silk, or linen, or them, the season in which the dyes were made…so could you tells us a bit about this Flo?
Flo: I like the idea to start a palette, so very… in that sense when we started the project together we made colour and we decided to print it on wool, and linen, so it gives an idea how it reacts to the fibre, and it’s a reference to what we decide to use then. So instead of straights and printing your designs with a colour you don’t know what it’s going to result in, I think it’s a good reference to what you decide to change maybe as well, if you think the colour is not strong enough, you may be able to tweak it a little bit. So in that instance we just had to strip the colour we made, and then had some modifier running through, so it indicates the different changes the colour, which brings another dimension to the possibility of colour into your work.
Zoe: It also really relates to the first thing that we found incredibly inspiring here in the MoDA collection, which was the dye book from 1894, which documents several hundred colours made from natural dyes, and it was a real springboard for our inspiration and excitement. And we replicated it in a different way and it became such a useful springboard for all our collaborative design collections.
Lara: Yeah because that dye book had a lots of very minute writing about the editions that the dye company had put with their dyes to get different shades…just how much ferrous sulphate or how much a particular acid, to just tweak it a little bit.
Ana: So I think this is fascinating also your reference to this object from the collection, because it seems to say and, correct me if I’m wrong, you were looking at all these objects as visual inspiration, but also this particular book also seemed to inspire the way you were working, so it also informed the process, is that correct?
Zoe: Yes, very much so, I think it captured all our imaginations, initially, we were just bowled over and wowed by it, and excited. Also we think the author of the book was Henry William Perkin, who was the first person to create synthetic dyes…so there’s a really interesting connection…Ana Baeza – going full circle here…
The circular economy
[At this point in our conversation, I was curious to know more about how Ceres connect their work to debates around sustainability within fashion and textile design, here is what we discussed…]
Ana: So in talking about sustainability, we also hear about the term circular economy, which has been around since about the 1970s but is becoming more and more widespread. This is a model that tries to reuse, that tries to minimise disposal, and circular economies often operating on a very local intend to reduce waste and increase resource productivity by exploiting these resources to the max. And I gather that as Flo has already mentioned, that you work closely with local businesses in Brixton market, and that part of that waste is what then you use in your studio. Can you tell us a bit more about this, Zoe?
Zoe: Ah yes, so last September we did an interesting project for London Design Week and made some community banners inviting people to print onto linen using local bio-waste dyes, so we went to cafes in Brixton market, we went to Eat of Eden, which is a vegan café, we went to Federation Coffee. And because of the fashionability at the moment of eating avocado, many cafes have a surplus of avocado pips which are rather fabulous for dyeing with, they create a lovely dusky pink tone. There’s also cafes such as Perks & Whites In Herne Hill, which produce vast amounts of coffee grinds, we were able to use these for dyeing too. So it’s a wonderful thing I’d encourage lots of students to do, or practitioners, is to use bio-waste; whether it’s asking family and friends collecting onion skins, or going to cafes and asking them for donations, who would be more than happy to give things away which would otherwise just go to the bin. So it’s a great way of using resources in a circular way.
Ana: We think of avocados, to follow from your examples, as a crop that requires a lot of water, that has often travelled thousands of miles from places with warmer, from warmer climates, so how do you see your role as a designer that is trying to reuse resources, but resources that are already having a major impact on the environment?
Zoe: It’s a good question. I think with all aspects of sustainability it’s not always clear, or black and white, but we feel that by reusing these bio-waste elements it’s bringing it back into a more creative way and I think we will go around the table we actually all love avocados. So yes, we understand, we are conscious of the aspects, but if we can use them in a more sustainable way and bring them back and make colours, then that is better than them ending in landfill.
Ana: What are some the issues that you have to negotiate when you choose your fabric?
Zoe: Well that’s a great question as well, because that is one of the great things of working collaboratively as part of Ceres as well is we were very lucky we were give given materials budget for this residency, and we were able to really think about it and discuss about it. There is an excellent show called the Sustainable Angle which has had its 8th one just in January this year, so we went along and had a look at some of the interesting fabrics that were available, and they have quite clear criteria about what they allow to show…to do with water usage, energy usage, whether its biodegradable and what effect it has on the biodiversity. So these are great things to bring into consciousness when choosing fabric.
So we wanted to choose a cross section from a variety of fabrics, across cellulose fibres which would be things like cotton and linen, things that grow from plants, and protein fibres, things that come from animals such as wool from sheep or silk from the silk worm. And we chose some peace silk which is silk harvesting according to the principle of ahimsa, I think that’s how you pronounce it. It’s Sanskrit, which means non-violent means, that worm which completes the silk metamorphoses to a moth, and hatches the cocoon. And we have all dyed one of these and in fact we’re going to carry on and collaboratively print on them as well. And we also chose some hemp silk; hemp is a remarkable fabric, it doesn’t need nearly as much water as cotton, it doesn’t need as much herbicide or pesticide, you get it in much greater yield from the space that’s needed. And we also chose a hemp silk, because it has the lustre of the silk but also the strength of the hemp. And we also chose a linen, and the natural dyes all work on natural fibres, we didn’t choose any synthetic fibres at all for this residency. And those were the fabrics that we chose. And wool, we also chose wool.
But interestingly we all did some research on fabric provenance, and we did find that from asking some of our suppliers where the fabrics came from that it wasn’t always clear the supply chain where the fabrics had come from. And I think this is another really interesting thing, just as much as the Fashion Revolution, the awful collapse of the Rana Plaza factory, kick-started this fantastic charity about the Fashion rev.org and #whomademyclothes, I also feel there needs to be a raising of consciousness of where fabrics come from, provenance, and how much water was used, and I think that’s where the sustainable angle is an excellent showcase for new and imminent fabrics as well.
Crafts as Activism?
[Ana: It became clear from what Zoe said that there were parallels between the ethos of CERES and the advocacy for crafts as a kind of activism, which really brought us to an interesting conversation about artisanship, process and the collective sharing and making…it is particularly inspiring to hear that they are making inroads into uncharted territory, and have lots of ideas of how to develop this further, as you can hear from this next bit in our discussion…]
Ana: So what brings this work together is this focus on craft, artisanship in your approach, and I wanted to ask you about that, I think there’s an important thing to consider about how we enjoy what we do, and often you hear people often being stressed, or being in certain work conditions, having a hard time to get by especially if they’re creative artists. And first, how is it to be a collective, how that was helpful, but also how do you see that what you do expresses something that is about a joy of working in a certain way…?
Zoe: Well I think there has been such a revival of craft recently, you know, we’ve just had London craft week, just last week, and I think what we’re doing is quite pioneering, in fact, there’s no books on natural dye prints at all. And I think by developing a community of practice where we all shared our knowledge very freely and openly has become a great sort of springboard to develop our work collectively, and although we all have individual approaches I have learnt so much in working with Lara and Flo. And it’s an inspirational group, so it’s…on many levels it’s good.
Lara: I think it’s the process to me that is the joy as well, it’s not always the finished product, it’s actually taking raw materials and printing them, and then reacting to the print, and then having Flo or Zoe’s input into how the print is going, and then changing it again and tweaking, so that it’s always a work in progress that you’re reflecting one until you get something that you absolutely love and adore…
Flo: Yes, there is something very much equal as well, being the three of us, you know, we bounce back ideas, and share all this excitement in a really slow but constructive way to build up more…
Zoe: And because we’re all in education as well, so we’re all concerned how to share it too, and we think it’s an important development in terms of textile practice for sustainability.
Ana: Yeah and I did want to ask you about that actually, because, as you way, you’re all in education, you teach, are you trying also to spread a certain way of doing things, of thinking of making. I mean, are there bigger stakes, of shaping not only what you, but also what other people will be thinking about, a way of living, a way of thinking about craft, and almost of reconfiguring our relationship with the world?
Flo: Yes I think through teaching we inspire students with different outlooks, really to think deeply about life, and impact on the world, and I think we come across different projects. I personally took part in a project with students, and I think it’s a really good platform for them to talk about or be inspired different way of making things, and taking the time for it, not fast.
Ana: Well that’s important right, making the time to do things. But do you sense there is a receptiveness from students?
Zoe: Yes, very much so, it feels like a growing area of interest as well. I think a lot of millenials are concerned about sustainability and climate change. You mentioned earlier as well we’ve just had the Extinction rebellion protests, we’ve just had the 49th World Earth Day recently. There’s a lot of design activism happening at the moment, which is exciting to feel part of. Design is a powerful tool for change.
Ana: I guess, in a sense there’s a political nature to your work, to how you produce, but I don’t know whether you would say that you take a consciously political stance. Or how, how do you see the relation…
Zoe: It’s quietly political. I don’t think we’re sort of… with banners, though I think textiles have been very exciting previously, where… textiles have been used by suffragettes, they’ve been used in protests all over the world, you know, because it’s a powerful way of communicating ideas. But yes, I think, quietly, we are political. You know there’s movements like …craftivism […], which I feel kindred spirit to as well, a really lovely gentle, feminine way of creating change…is a…slow process.
Lara: It’s a sharing social values, so it’s to do with the process of creation, but also how you’re thinking about the world, and the people you’re interacting with in the world as well.
Zoe: Yeah, I, I think it’s part of people being engaged in the creative process of making a garment or adding something to… whether through embellishment. I would encourage students to learn skills, as many skills as possible, whether its screen-dyeing, sewing, pattern-cutting, you know, become involved in shaping your garments and changing them and adapting them…I think that would be exciting.
Lara: I think Zoe is entirely right, if you invest in the making and creative process, then that’s the joy that you’re getting from that garment that you’re making or you’re embellishing, and you don’t need to feel that you need to go out and buy something to get that same adrenaline hit, because you’ve already invested in the creation of something.
Zoe: And buying vintage as well…
Flo: The quality as well, and you know, don’t buy, and if you buy don’t buy cheap, really consider where it comes from, invest in long time, I mean, we have all clothes that my grandmother was wearing, or my mother or… and I think there is something very precious about the clothes in that sense, if you look at generations, like their heirloom, it goes through generations, and is more to cherish that way rather than something disposal.
Ana: So to go back to your work, do you expect it will have a long life span?
Zoe: Yes, I hope so, once it’s out of your hands it’s up to the owner how they look after it, but yes of course your hope would be that it would be looked after and be cherished and enjoyed for a long time.
Ana: So do you see these as unique pieces, could you imagine that they would be produced on a bigger scale? I imagine the answer is probably not…but I just…
Zoe: Not mass scale, kind of small runs, but we’re still thinking about our next steps, what will happen anyhow…
Lara: Yeah, we have ideas, we thought it’d be very lovely to do a simple collection of garments, and then there’s other ideas about writing the book that we don’t think has been written yet about natural dyes – natural dye printing, there’s been lots of books about natural dyes, but not any about the printing. And we think it’s a fascinating subject.
Zoe: And [we want to] carry on collaborating with different projects as well. Because the work we’ve done with the Remakery recently, which is an excellent place, resource in Lambeth, which is all about reusing materials, and we recently were there helping them grow a little dye garden. And we talked to them about them about setting up a print studio where we’re purely using natural dyes and natural print paste, which we think this is quite unique thing in London, we don’t know anywhere else or worldwide that does that. And also looking at different ways that we can use renewable energy, and facilitate a water system that reuses the water as well. One of the things that was inspiring was seeing Flo with her silk screens using a rag to clean it as well… there’s a lot of water involved in the textile industry, just using a rag, clean rag, to clean it down is a way of minimising that impact as well.
Flo: So we’d really like to establish a little sustainable print room, with no chemicals,
Zoe: …educative, and commercial.
Zoe: We’d like to say a massive thank you to MoDA for giving us the opportunity to explore their collection and to work on this project, it’s been a real revelation and joy….thank you very much.
Lara: Yes, it was a fabulous project.
Flo: Yeah we’ve been very privileged to have had this opportunity…
Ana: Well thank you very much, it’s been wonderful working with you and talking about your work with you as well and getting to know more about how you see yourselves in the wider context of fashion, so thanks for a great discussion.
That Feels Like Home is produced by the Museum of Domestic Design and Architecture, MoDA, Middlesex University.
In other episodes, we will be talking about contemporary issues that emerge from MoDA’s collections, from the gentrification of London’s suburbs to the relationship between our homes, everyday things and memories.
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