Where do you draw the line at Heavyweight vs Super Heavyweight ?

After about 210-215 lbs its very hard to add functional muscle and weight while remaining athletic. Once you get to 220+ many guys, even nowadays with all the knowledge abailable, end up becoming stiff musclebound guys lacking cardio or they quickly start to add fat and become lethargic whales without a personal trainer and nutritionist.

If you are 215-220 lbs and can run for miles, hit the heavy bag, spar, and are built with very powerful explosive fast twitch muscles, it will be hard for any man of any size to bully or overpower you. Guys like Holyfield, holmes, Ali, wilder, etc make this very clear that in a sport like boxing adding tons of weight (even if its muscle) isnt always ideal or necessary after a certain point. At some point itll just slow you down and most guys only weigh 230-240 or more due to laziness, for show, or because thats what everyone else does and they feel they can outmuscle and bully the other guy.

The reality is boxing is combat first and a sport second. In combat you need to be fast AND strong AND have good cardio. Very few heavyweights are succesful when they only focus on 2, let alone one. Its very tricky finding a balance and it becomes that much harder the more weight you add.

There are exceptions of course. Wladmir and vitali klitschko, anthony joshua, lennox lewis, ike ibeabuchi, etc. However youll notice with many of the boxers i mentioned they arent known for having exceptionally high workrate or speed. They are incredibly strong and have high ring iq but if they dont take out their opponent by the halfway point they will often gas and need to spend several minutes or even entire rounds clinching their opponent to death or fighting in spurts. If a ref did their job and actually penalized them who knows how history would be different. They also benefit from roujds being reduced from 15-12 rounds.

Now as for the question of smaller pre 70's heavyweights vs modern sized guys: the issue isnt if the smaller hw could win due to the size difference. Several great hws beat several men much larger than them (although vert few compared to modern shws in terms of skill). So the real question is do you think the modern sized shws are too skilled for the smaller hws to make up for the difference in size?

As i said before, the cut off point would probably be around 215-220 depending on the skill level of the two fighters in question. I just dont see a 195 pound or even a 205 pound heavyweight having much success against a skilled 240+ pound super heavyweight.

 

I think a lot of the heavyweight/superheavyweight debate is more of a height and reach issue than actual weight.
Deontay Wilder is 6'7 but only weighed 214 lbs for his last fight, while David Tua who was only 5'10 weighed as much as 245lbs. Personally I don't want to see a Superheavyweight division in the pro ranks, Chris Byrd who only retired a few years ago had a great career at 6'1 about 208lbs with a 74 inch reach. There already is a Cruiserweight division, for some of the smaller heavyweights if they feel that they are being outsized they can get down to under 200 and fight there. Boxing is more about skill than height, weight, and reach, but then again everyone loves to see the big guys, so it is the big money division.

 

It's a combination Height, Reach and Weight. An evolution of the heavyweight division. Big men with a lot of power who can box, punch and tag a shorter guy from a distance without being hit.

The much smaller guy is going to need durability, power, and heart to overcome this.

While I think any puncher could KO an average or even good chined 250-pound big guy, getting there not so easy if the big guy knows who to fight.

You can't expect a 190-200 pound guy not to be worn down when a 240-250 pound man puts his weight down on him in the clinches which can spoil in-fighting.

Lewis, Klitschko, Klitschko, and Joshua...the future champions will have similar #'s

 

Don’t forget Wilder

 

The problem the sport has is that cruiserweight is undesirable. And yet with 24 hour weigh ins this division will contain all of the greatest heavyweights of the last century. Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Foreman and Liston.

Fighters have historically put weight on in order to bypass that division. With 24 hour weigh ins the whole business of weight classes is completely misleading anyway. Tyson at 216lb (as he was in his best) would need to be a cruiserweight now if he wanted to be 216 on the night.

What we need is a name change. Not a new division. A name change.

Cruiser becomes “heavyweight” like it is in amateur boxing. It is in line with classic heavyweights anyway. It would bring a deserved prestige to the boxers We now call cruisers if they were called heavyweights.

This creates no new divisions. The Cruiser name vanishes and all the champions of that division become the heavyweight champions. So that means Gassiev, Usyk and goulamirian become the “heavyweight champions”. Wilder and Joshua and Charr become “Superheavyweight champions”.

Anything bigger than “heavyweight” becomes Superheavyweight. Just like it is in amateur boxing.

I have said all along that Profesional boxing should come in line with Amateur boxing. The way it is now is more confusing. Amateurs are often a weight out turning pro. It is a nonsense as it is.

Why should amateur heavyweights turning pro to become a pro cruiser?

I would rather see Super heavyweights become the unfashionable division. It deserves it.

 

If we had a name change, cruiser becomes heavyweight, and Ali gets compared to Usyk and Gassiev. Joshua and Fury get compared to Carnera and Willard.

yes about these “exceptions”. Did we see any of these athletic monsters before the era where supersized guys began failing drug tests?

This is an excellent point. Very very good. This feature of the gassing, the spurt fighting and clinching is a trait of the giant sized fighters. All of the changes to the sport have made it easier for the bigger guy than it ever was before. “Heavyweight boxing” has changed beyond all recognition Since the superheavyweight take over.

That’s why I would endorse a changing of the cruiserweight wording to heavyweight. Make Usyk and Gassiev the heavyweight champions. And cut the jumbo sized guys loose to become what they are anyway, Superheavyweight champions.

 

Rubbish. Heavyweight has always been about the greatest fighter in the world with no upper weight restriction. The best big man. Just because you don't like that they have become so big many believe some of your favorites wouldn't cut the mustard with them doesn't change a thing.

 

The fighters I like would cut the mustard anyway. They remain great.

The vast, overwhelming majority of Jumbo sized guys are no better than Willard and Carnera anyway. It’s inarguable.

For every Lennox Lewis at Superheavyweight there are two thousand Leroy Jones and Charles Martin type guys.

 

It became about being the biggest guy with the longest arms. The Klitschko format. We even saw Joshua adopt these tactics against Parker.

No. These Superheavyweight tactics deserve its own Superheavyweight division. Let fans of big guys hugging enjoy that elsewhere.

Fans of boxing, fans of wanting to watch who is actually the best fighter -in open fighting- can watch Gassiev and Usyk. These are the true descendants of heavyweight boxing.

 

One day, i will be sitting at a bar, somewhere in the world and just passing the time discussing boxing with the stranger sat next to me. The discussion would work it's way around to East Side Boxing and this forum.
We would them announce that we are both members and the pleasant stranger, whom i have thus far enjoyed beverages with will announce that his username is Choklab.
At that point i stick the nut in, lol.

 

Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis demolished guys who were the size of modern super heavyweights, who wile not being great, were obviously world class.

We have to regard them as a serious threat to the current generation of heavyweights based on that alone.

 

today’s cruisers are 210-218 in the ring. That comfortably includes prime Ali, prime Holmes, prime Witherspoon, prime everybody but bonecrusher Smith, Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschkos.

Gassiev and Usyk are the true descendants of what was heavyweight boxing.

 

And let me tell you, that would be a very silly mistake my freind. Absolutely Fatal. Lol!